Punk Books

[androo]

Greil Marcus is a case study in how not to write about rock music. Insufferable windbaggery at its most self-indulgent, this shit lives in its own critical theory parlour game, entirely removed from, and equally untroubled by, the realities of the music/people/impulses ostensibly in discussion.

[rob]

was just going through books to sell and realized my copy of "please kill me" is one of the first books I read that I chose to read.  It still has the receipt from 1999 (I was 13) and pages folded over.  I remember exactly where I was when I bought it, along with my first copy of punk planet (about the warped tour).  I love reading punk books and will read just about anything that comes out about the topic.  I feel like the advent of wikipedia and discogs has really changed the way I consume information ("I wonder who produced this record?  What else did they produce?") and I really miss the oral history aspect of most punk books.  Even the often maligned "American Hardcore" is a great read.  Mistakes, bad attitude, etc. but still a fun (and very fast) read.

[I Am Not Marty Feldman]

I've never read any of Greil Marcus's books and have only glossed through a few essays.  My very limited sense is that he appears stuck in a sorta square-looking-in perspective -- and that he's also hamstrung by this desire to analyze rock/roll based on social climes, which strikes me as part of a '60s hangover. 

Say what you will about Christgau, but at the bottom of it all, he's a good writer. 

I can only see the flaws in Meltzer when I read him now.  Too intent on creating a persona and he's just as full of shit as any of 'em, albeit in a different way -- and the largest difference is that he's fun while the others aren't. 

[Spacecase Records]

I really like Greil Marcus. And I have for a very long time. None of the criticisms voiced -- loosely too "academic," "stuffy" -- bothered me at all. I spent a lot of time reading Marx, Marcuse, Situationist works, so his material fit right into my wheelhouse. But I never thought of it in those terms. I just viewed him as a great scholar and music writer. His connection with the Situationists -- which included going to Paris and interviewing folks like Michele Bernstein -- had to be incredibly difficult, both to track them down and to build a rapport with them. He was building the nexus between punk and Situationism in the mid '80s. Along with John Dougan, he was also one of the earliest and most vocal supporters of Kleenex/LiLiput. If you're looking at Greil Marcus as a one-stop for all your music history needs, it's not going to happen. As I stated earlier, you've got oral history in the Studs Terkel tradition, autobiographies, etc. I don't know of anyone cornering the market. I'm just surprised by all the hatred directed toward Greil.     

I used to read Nick Tosches a lot, because I found his irreverence really funny in my early 20s. Meltzer I had respect for because of his unorthodox tastes. Of all rock journalists who supported Nervous Gender, he probably had the biggest profile.

Robert Christgau really seems to like Robert Christgau. And that's wonderful. I do have to give him credit for recommending Marshall Berman's All That is Solid Melts into Air, which I don't any of Marcus' detractors would care for very much.

[I Am Not Marty Feldman]

I really like Greil Marcus. And I have for a very long time. None of the criticisms voiced -- loosely too "academic," "stuffy" -- bothered me at all. I spent a lot of time reading Marx, Marcuse, Situationist works, so his material fit right into my wheelhouse. But I never thought of it in those terms. I just viewed him as a great scholar and music writer. His connection with the Situationists -- which included going to Paris and interviewing folks like Michele Bernstein -- had to be incredibly difficult, both to track them down and to build a rapport with them. He was building the nexus between punk and Situationism in the mid '80s. Along with John Dougan, he was also one of the earliest and most vocal supporters of Kleenex/LiLiput. If you're looking at Greil Marcus as a one-stop for all your music history needs, it's not going to happen. As I stated earlier, you've got oral history in the Studs Terkel tradition, autobiographies, etc. I don't know of anyone cornering the market. I'm just surprised by all the hatred directed toward Greil.     

That's a nice resum?, but he's just not a very exciting author.  Aside from (and including, actually) the Dylan dross, it's always seemed to me that he's writing for squares or baby booms or both -- like he's trying to communicate with the 55-year-old guy at the bar who's excited about the new Adele LP and would love to tell you about its social implications and how it's actually "more punk" than, I don't know, the last Foo Fighters record.  There's no teeth in it and it's often embarrassing.

[Sukebe GG]

I really like Greil Marcus. And I have for a very long time. None of the criticisms voiced -- loosely too "academic," "stuffy" -- bothered me at all. I spent a lot of time reading Marx, Marcuse, Situationist works, so his material fit right into my wheelhouse. But I never thought of it in those terms. I just viewed him as a great scholar and music writer. His connection with the Situationists -- which included going to Paris and interviewing folks like Michele Bernstein -- had to be incredibly difficult, both to track them down and to build a rapport with them. He was building the nexus between punk and Situationism in the mid '80s.

Agree, although it has been a while...I read Lipstick Traces while heavily immersed in the Sits, and remember really liking the part that dealt with tracing their roots in the early avant garde and their history, but felt he forced them into the Sex Pistols - pumping their import up way beyond what it was and attaching too much sociological baggage to "rock music"...But, I really have never read anything else he has done...

[Spacecase Records]

I really like Greil Marcus. And I have for a very long time. None of the criticisms voiced -- loosely too "academic," "stuffy" -- bothered me at all. I spent a lot of time reading Marx, Marcuse, Situationist works, so his material fit right into my wheelhouse. But I never thought of it in those terms. I just viewed him as a great scholar and music writer. His connection with the Situationists -- which included going to Paris and interviewing folks like Michele Bernstein -- had to be incredibly difficult, both to track them down and to build a rapport with them. He was building the nexus between punk and Situationism in the mid '80s.

Agree, although it has been a while...I read Lipstick Traces while heavily immersed in the Sits, and remember really liking the part that dealt with tracing their roots in the early avant garde and their history, but felt he forced them into the Sex Pistols - pumping their import up way beyond what it was and attaching too much sociological baggage to "rock music"...But, I really have never read anything else he has done...

I think Lydon has stated how irrelevant the Situationists were to him (and I don't doubt that), although, of course, they meant a lot to McLaren who was either a peripheral member of King Mob or wished he was. Julian Reid was into Situationist art, employing some of the same typography and themes. What was Marx's definition of ideology? "They don't know it, but they are doing it." McLaren, of course, viewed himself as the puppet master, and he probably took Marx's notion of ideology to heart. When you watch Swindle, his voice over states something similar ("like a sculpture, I molded them..."). I think a telling sign of how shallow McLaren's commitment to SI-like cultural hijacking came when Steve Jones said that immediately after Grundy, McLaren shit himself.

With the Pistols, I think it's somewhere in the middle. McLaren was never deeply committed to the Situationists, but he liked their aesthetic and subversiveness. Just as I think it'd be false to state that the Situationists had no influence on punk, it'd be ludicrous to state that they were the hegemonic force. Other currents like Dada/Futurism were there too, especially with Kleenex/LiLiput and their occasional phonetic lyrics (reminiscent of Hugo balls "sound poems" -- they were both working in Zurich) and more scholarly and well-read bands like the Consumers, who were slightly older than other punk bands and caught the tailend of late '60s radicalism, were aware of the SI and borrowed from them as well. And I think Marcus did a great job of connecting the dots with all of this 20th Century left-wing radicalism (Futurism excluded) and avant-garde movements. Whether you agree the links are as strong as he states they are I don't think is very important. It's that he got the ball rolling and allowed people to make the connections if they wanted to. It's been a while too. I loaned Lipstick Traces out to a friend years ago who subsequently moved to England.

Ultimately, I think McLaren would have liked it had Lydon bottomed out like Jones and Cook did. That would have verified all the bullshit he stated about control. Of course, he later released Metal Box.

I don't know much about what Greil Marcus is doing nowadays. Pumping mainstream crap to parents and Pharmabro? Wouldn't surprise me. I don't read much rock journalism these days, outside of books released by university presses and oral histories and interviews. Exceptions being Robert Gordon, Jon Savage and a few other folks. But Lipstick Traces was exceptional. Marcus did a great job with that book.     

Jon Savage is one of the best non-fiction writers/historians working today. Edmund White is one of the few writers who can top him.

[erickelric]

I liked Lipstick Traces well enough when I read it, but I'd say most of the above criticisms are on-point, esp. as regards Marcus in general.

England's Dreaming, on the other hand, is a great book and wedges the Situationists into punk as tightly as anyone is going to. I feel like Savage gets punk (and was part of it, unlike Marcus) way more than ol' Greil is ever going to. Fuck, let's not even get started on Dave Marsh.

[Spacecase Records]

I liked Lipstick Traces well enough when I read it, but I'd say most of the above criticisms are on-point, esp. as regards Marcus in general.

England's Dreaming, on the other hand, is a great book and wedges the Situationists into punk as tightly as anyone is going to. I feel like Savage gets punk (and was part of it, unlike Marcus) way more than ol' Greil is ever going to. Fuck, let's not even get started on Dave Marsh.

I agree and disagree. Marcus did much more first-hand research into the SI and had a much greater emphasis on their theory. They're different books that overlap. Marcus' book was more evenly divided between Dada/Situationistism/punk, treating each with near equal importance (as I recall) whereas Savage's book was a history of English punk that touched on McLaren's flirtation with SI thought and displayed less emphasis on the influence of SI/King Mob on punk (but also tied in previous youth movements like the Teddy Boys). I'll concede this: Like Sukebe GG, I was as interested in the Situationists as I was punk, which undoubtedly reflects my higher opinion of the book.

I agree with you that Jon Savage was more of an active participant in punk rock, understood British punk rock better, and is a better writer than Marcus. He's no slouch when it comes to youth culture either (Teenage is exceptional.) But Marcus was much more heavily involved with the SI and appeared to have a much greater knowledgeable regarding their theoretical works (but, again, different books). If that doesn't interest you, Lipstick Traces won't be of much appeal. Marcus was one of the first writers to really break that ground, giving Savage a precedent to work off of -- whether he agreed or disagreed with the former's approach or not. Again, I really liked Lipstick Traces and some of the other early stuff Marcus was coming up with. Excellent book. What he's up to now? Not sure, but from accounts on this board, it ain't pretty. When I talk Lou Reed, it's not Sally Can't Dance on my mind, but VU and the good solo stuff. When I talk Greil Marcus, it isn't Adele but Hugo Ball I'm talking about.   

[erickelric]

I liked Lipstick Traces well enough when I read it, but I'd say most of the above criticisms are on-point, esp. as regards Marcus in general.

England's Dreaming, on the other hand, is a great book and wedges the Situationists into punk as tightly as anyone is going to. I feel like Savage gets punk (and was part of it, unlike Marcus) way more than ol' Greil is ever going to. Fuck, let's not even get started on Dave Marsh.

I agree and disagree. Marcus did much more first-hand research into the SI and had a much greater emphasis on their theory. They're different books that overlap. Marcus' book was more evenly divided between Dada/Situationistism/punk, treating each with near equal importance (as I recall) whereas Savage's book was a history of English punk that touched on McLaren's flirtation with SI thought and displayed less emphasis on the influence of SI/King Mob on punk (but also tied in previous youth movements like the Teddy Boys).

Yeah, you're right. It's been many years since I read Lipstick Traces, and I'm glad I did. I've read England's Dreaming twice, over the course of many years. And I also own a copy still. I think they definitely inform and complement each other and if I taught a class, would be required reading. Savage is just more fun to read, I think. He retains some of the blood-pump of the street, Marcus certainly whiffs of higher learning. Still, at his worst, I'd rather read him than suffer thru Christgau's funhouse mirror ego. And as you've noted, Marcus was a champion of quality femme post/punk, which is close to my craven heart.

[Spacecase Records]

I liked Lipstick Traces well enough when I read it, but I'd say most of the above criticisms are on-point, esp. as regards Marcus in general.

England's Dreaming, on the other hand, is a great book and wedges the Situationists into punk as tightly as anyone is going to. I feel like Savage gets punk (and was part of it, unlike Marcus) way more than ol' Greil is ever going to. Fuck, let's not even get started on Dave Marsh.

I agree and disagree. Marcus did much more first-hand research into the SI and had a much greater emphasis on their theory. They're different books that overlap. Marcus' book was more evenly divided between Dada/Situationistism/punk, treating each with near equal importance (as I recall) whereas Savage's book was a history of English punk that touched on McLaren's flirtation with SI thought and displayed less emphasis on the influence of SI/King Mob on punk (but also tied in previous youth movements like the Teddy Boys).

Yeah, you're right. It's been many years since I read Lipstick Traces, and I'm glad I did. I've read England's Dreaming twice, over the course of many years. And I also own a copy still. I think they definitely inform and complement each other and if I taught a class, would be required reading. Savage is just more fun to read, I think. He retains some of the blood-pump of the street, Marcus certainly whiffs of higher learning. Still, at his worst, I'd rather read him than suffer thru Christgau's funhouse mirror ego. And as you've noted, Marcus was a champion of quality femme post/punk, which is close to my craven heart.

Yeah, I agree with you. Jon Savage is exceptional. He's definitely more readable than Greil Marcus. I read Teenage a few months ago and I remember thinking "I wish all people were this good."

[erickelric]

What's that all about? Teen culture in general?

[Spacecase Records]

First off, it's just extraordinary. It really is.

How it started: Jon Savage had been employed by the BBC to do a series of docs on youth culture. He mapped out a whole guideline for episodes, did interviews, etc., and then it was shelved. I believe this was early '90s. But it got him started down that road. As you're likely aware, teenagers as a defined demographic popped up just after WWII -- the genesis of consumer culture. Well, Savage documents the rise of teenagers as an undefined but visible/nebulous group of people, starting at the twilight of the 19th century to 1945. Covers the Bright Young People in England, zoot suiters, swing kids, Hitler's mobilization of youth and more. It's sort of the proto-rise of the "teenager" as something other than boy and adult, aided by the rise of mandatory education, self-definition, etc.

England's Dreaming impressed me. Teenage convinced me that Jon Savage was one of the best writers around. Seriously. One of the best pieces of non-fiction I had read since Edmund White's biography on Jean Genet. 

[cerealrecords]

Robert Christgau really seems to like Robert Christgau. And that's wonderful. I do have to give him credit for recommending Marshall Berman's All That is Solid Melts into Air, which I don't any of Marcus' detractors would care for very much.

Here's a Marcus detractor that cares for Berman very much.

Also his first book, The Politics of Authenticity.

[Spacecase Records]

Robert Christgau really seems to like Robert Christgau. And that's wonderful. I do have to give him credit for recommending Marshall Berman's All That is Solid Melts into Air, which I don't any of Marcus' detractors would care for very much.

Here's a Marcus detractor that cares for Berman very much.

Also his first book, The Politics of Authenticity.

Wonderful.